Thursday, March 15, 2007

Maybe Bill Clinton Should Stay Away From Pakistan

Two men and one woman were stoned and shot in Pakistan for the crime of adultery. But Muslims are still peaceful, understanding people we shouldn't fear. So long as you don't sleep around, draw their God, drink alcohol, make fun of them, support Israel or America or say anything negative about Islam or Mohamed. Remember those rules and you'll be fine.


Anonymous said...

If I'm not mistaken, America didn't look too kindly on Clinton for getting a 'bit on the side' (or was it on his desk?)... there are those who'd be ok lynching him, all steming from adultery

Considering adultery is a form of entertainment in America (ask Jerry Springer), Clinton was pursued with disproportionate fervour (to the point that is options were either lie under oath, or tell 'em to 'piss-off', that it's no ones business other than his, Hilary's, and what's-her-name... Both Bushes can invade/bomb sovereign nations, but Willy can't get none...).
It looks like you got be careful in America too

Anonymous said...

But; it does not get you dead as a judicial sentance for a crime as in Pakistan. Is that what you meant to add Murph? I guess AMERICA needs to work more on it's "Tolerance", Right?

Anonymous said...

Not so much tolerance, as it just seemed bizarre (from an outside perspective) how big a deal was made of it.
As I mentioned the other day, Australia had a Prime minister in the 1950's the died in his mistress' bed, and nobody really bothered about it.
Sure lying under oath is NOT GOOD if you are a leader of a country, but the fact that he was put on the stand was way over the top.
Of course he was getting a bit on the side, haven't they all? (George excepted, somehow that just wouldn't 'add-up'), people would wonder what was going on if he didn't.
So while Clinton didn't get stoned to death (his political career did), he was pursued beyond reason (it was adultery people! I'm not saying it's admirable, just no big deal).

Christopher Lee said...

When we start shooting people for it, then you'll have an argument that holds water.

Anonymous said...

Now who's doing the 'cultural equivalence' thing. Of course killing people for adultery is uncool...
but still, I suppose I'm just disappointed, I kind of expected more of America than to be so petty about what the west understands as a 'personal matter'... that involved a public figure.
Maybe it's more to do with Lewinsky, the Marilyn/Kennedy thing was almost celebrated.
Maybe if Monica was a bit more glamourous, and Bill less sleazy...

Anonymous said...

The shootings were the work of a more extreme religious outfit, no way the work of the authorities. If some exreme gropup calling themselves Christians (such as the knights of the Klu Klux Klan) lynched black people, because they were black people, and the local authorities didn't strain themselves investigating the a matter (cos they were too busy taking their pretty white hooded robes to the dry-cleaners), then it would not be dis-similar. I understand that it isn't that long since such things happened in the US (Mississipi burning?)

Anonymous said...

There are really no comparisons of the attrocities kind-like that Islam conducts on its people everyday. It is foolish to even try. 7th century barbarism is just that only its the same done in Islams name today. All over the world. Sharia law is a bitch man..
I can't think of even one other civilization nor so called religion that executes a woman for BEING raped against her will other than Islam. But it happens everyday around the world. Even an accusation of un-modesty will get a girl or woman killed. And many times by her own family as an "honor killing".

Christopher Lee said...

Bingo. And that's not just some "extreme religious outfit". That's done by governments under Islamic law. Take the Egyptian blogger who dared to suggest that woman have equal rights. His own father called for his death.

Christianity doesn't scare me. Judaism doesn't scare me. Buddhism doesn't scare me. Islam does. And if it doesn't scare you, you need to take your head out of the sand and see the real world for the first time.

Anonymous said...

And that's not just some "extreme religious outfit". That's done by governments under Islamic law."
No Chris, if you read the article, it wasn't the government, but a small tribal outfit, who the local gov have no real power over.
"the government had only learned of the incident on Thursday and that, in any case, it had no power to interfere with "tribal traditions" in the semi-autonomous tribal belt." (from the article)

"Christianity doesn't scare me"...
but some things done in its name are a different matter. It's convenient that people make that exception for Christianity, but not for Islam
(ie. any crazy [even me] could say I do this for Allah, I am a Muslim [I am not] and do something really f*cked-up, and that suites some people just fine... They go looking for links to Islam [when it might just be plain old nationalism or some other cause]...
We find a far higher than average rate of paedophilia in the clergy around the world and do our best to hide or forgive it. Would Islam get the same free pass when some of it followers do something contrary to its teachings [I'm assuming there isn't anything in the bible compelling priests to become 'kiddy-fiddlers']? The answer is 'no')
... but media and xenophobic nuts go looking for anything they can tie to anyone who ever claimed to be Muslim.
So, it's not these three religions (from the same place) that scare me, it's what followers of ALL sides are willing to do/have done that scares me

"take your head out of the sand and see the real world for the first time"
You do realise you live in about the most media-managed country on the planet... I expect the only 'real world' you've seen was the name of TV program (and it was brought to you by Pepsi)

Is this 'head in the sand'/'real world' thing about forming a realistic understanding based on a balanced variety of different points of view? Then that's easy. I know, or have known a number of Arab Muslims (Egyptian, Iraqi..). I know ex-VC, Indonesians (don't always ask religion, but it is the most populous Muslim nation, I have lived with Indonesians), Cambodians who fled a land bombed-flat (simply because the country was next-door was someone America was fighting, Jewish neighbours....
A number of friends and family have or do serve in armed forces, I've gone to school with US 'army brats' (I grew-up 5km from the Watsonia dish/base.. they also had tanks and shit). My favourite cousin worked her way up from an oceanographer on a smallish ship to the 'intelligence' end of DOD. Also, my best friend has started a contract with ASIO (so you can bet that someone he's had a 23 year friendship has been 'veted', if you're lucky, they may have even read your blog as result Chris). The thing is I can 'sit down for meal' with any of them, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist... the one thing you need to get along is respect, and that seems a commodity in short supply in america... the whole world can kiss your asses? and you tell me to get my head out of the sand? Is there anyone wondering why you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for allies (England wants to go, Australian is only there because of a spineless, jelly-backed PM who'd blow Dubya if he asked, and will go after this years elections)
So you can tell me to get in the 'real world', while America is the media equivalent of a 'bubble-boy' (I had my suspicions, but after 9/11, with all those wide-eyed innocent house-wife-types asking 'why would anyone hate us?.. What has America ever done to anyone? It took me a while to work-out why there were so many of those interviews/sound-bites.. it's because anyone the media really wanted to speak to was busy trying to find 'The independent republic of Terrorism' on a map!)

So, which bit of the world-view an I missing (of course that isn't everyone I know, just a few relevant to this discussion)?

It's about now that I wondering (because of your comment about world-view, Chris) is there a basic assumption that anyone critical of what is going on, must therefore be actively supporting 'the other side'? (some people have trouble with the idea that there might more than two positions, I know George Bush jr is one of them. He said in plain terms: 'you are either with us or against us'[I suspect even that was a major effort] No room for 'bad-guys on both sides' etc.
It would be about now that I would have stopped laughing at Chris' suggestion that I get my head out of the sand, but knowing as many Muslims of Arab and non-Arab backgrounds as I do, I know it's no laughing matter.

In fact, it's probably a good time to ask do either of you Chris and John, actually know any Muslims (Arab or otherwise)... and no John, it doesn't count if you harass random Arabs in the street to tell them their lives are a lie, because telling me 'take your head out of the sand and see the real world" seems like a pretty big joke from people who live such insulated country.

Anonymous said...

You accusing me of harassing average muslims randomly in the streets? I don't play that; you insulter of logic and reason.
I would also dare say to you that I KNOW and have known probably hundreds of Muslims the world over.
I taught Jordanians, Eqyptians, Kuwaitis, and Saudis during my time in the US Army. Many I would call friends today. Many are Muslim because thats what the family is. Most have agreed recently(the ones I still have contact with); that Islam is a totalitarianism all its own and its adherance is enforced by death threats and intimidation. AND; that there will be no peace anywhere on earth until it's culture of hate and death are stopped.

Anonymous said...

Christianity doesn't scare me. Judaism doesn't scare me. Buddhism doesn't scare me. Islam does.

Yeah, that's because you're in the firing line of some Muslims. Chris, if you check there are places in Israel where non-Jews have to build metal cages around their houses to protect themselves. There was an incident only a year or two ago where Buddhist authorities brutally killed a bunch of political protesters, and incarcerated the rest in conditions where many of the survivors died (of being crushed by the number of their inmates no less). And Christianity was the prime way of excusing a South American dictator's mass slaughter of the native peoples (Guatemala I believe).

All religions have their nutjobs. Yet you're looking across the world and highlighting extreme cases. Look inside your own nation, and you'll see that the Muslim community there is generally pro-America with a strong anti-terrorist stance.

If you stop looking at the world with religious dividers, you'll see that this kind of thing happens regularly on every continent barring North America, regardless of what the local religion is. Most of the world is made up of developing nations, and as a matter of course, developing nations have a lot of brutal happenings in them.

If you want some homework so you can be comparative, look at Zimbabwe.

In fact, as a rule of thumb, if the nation was formed in the 1900s, it's going to have that sort of thing happening. The solidity of a central unifying authority generally comes with time, and we had a lot of territorial reshuffles last century. And many times, the authorities are minority groups (or at other times, minority groups go out of control).

Anonymous said...

Sorry if we don't take your word for it za. But actually it is not at all like you think it is. Go figure since you have never even lived here or anything else.

Anonymous said...

Zimbabwe has about as much in common with America as you have with a capitalistic Republican Conservative. Nothing.

Anonymous said...

"You accusing me of harassing average muslims randomly in the streets"
No, not at all.
It was a joke, and if you didn't see it that way I am very sorry.
I was just speculating how someone with such strong views on Islam, would go talking to Muslims?
No offence intended

"I KNOW and have known probably hundreds of Muslims the world over.... Most have agreed recently(the ones I still have contact with); that Islam is a totalitarianism all"
(I was curious how someone so firmly opposed to Islam, could interact with Muslims)
It sounds difficult to call someone a Muslim who thinks of "Islam is a totalitarianism all its own... there will be no peace anywhere on earth until it's culture of hate and death are stopped."

I would have thought the correct answer would be 'the teachings of The Prophet (peace be upon him)?

The heart of the problem: "Many are Muslim because thats what the family is"
To be a muslim, there's certain things you need to believe, and hold true.
(Unless they believe, which is doubtful if they are calling for it's end in such strong terms) they are no more muslim, than atheist born to Christian parents.

Anonymous said...

You probably are correct about that. They don't follow the religion but call themselves Muslim and attend a Mosque. Like alot of Christians I know. But the fact remains that if they were true Muslims following the Qur'an; then they would have to convert me or kill me if I refused and I would not be talking to them.

Anonymous said...

"if they were true Muslims following the Qur'an; then they would have to convert me or kill me if I refused"

One of my closest friends is a Muslim, born in Egypt, moved here when he was in his 40's (he's the religious type: prays 5 times a day, won't drink alcohol, reads the book [also has quotes from it in the most beautiful calligraphy, hanging from his walls], he very much lives 'by the book'), but he has no interest in either converting or killing me (or anyone else for that matter).

Does this then make him 'defective' or something as far as Muslims go John? (The closest he's come to killing me is by insisting that I eat, when I really are full!).

The thing is, he's like most of the 'religious Muslims' that I have met or known....
... this culture of death type thing you describe John, doesn't sound like anyone I've met who's a Muslim.... (in fact, the only people I've heard speak that way about Islam, aren't Islamic.. like John etc)
Can we keep ours if they are tame?

Anonymous said...

Whatever you say Murph..dont let anything happening in the world change your view or the ONE muslim you have known.
If Islam is a religion of Peace; then sticks of Dynamite are only candles.

Anonymous said...

"the ONE muslim you have known."
I think you missed this:
"The thing is, he's like most of the 'religious Muslims' that I have met or known...."

I know or have know dozens of Muslims personally (About half being from Indonesia/Malaysia, do they still count, John?)

The point of the one example is that I think it's far to judge the character of a religious culture from someone who I know well, and is actually a Muslim, not someone who's parents were, or someone who just wants a banner to unite the fight against America with (as I have said before, plenty of evil is done 'in the name of' all three religions from the middle-east.. it doesn't make religion evil)

As you have said you wouldn't talk to a person who is a believer in Islam, that puts me in a far better position to know the religion... you've basically said John, that you'd only speak to someone if they think Islam is evil... It's not a very open-minded means appraisal.